Sponsor Message And Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This episode brought to you by Kathy Elwall, State Farm Insurance Agent. Visit her at KathyLwall.com. Welcome to the Bub Lounge. I'm Martha Jackson and with School Getting Back in session, I thought it would be a really good time to cover the ACT and SAT prep. And so I invited today Nima Baja with Scholastic Success. Nima, thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Of course, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Well, I don't think this is the most exciting thing that we could talk about today, but very much needed. Everywhere I go, I hear parents talking about, you know, things like when should we start? What is the process? So much has changed since back in our day. And I feel like it's so easy to think, well, we didn't have all this prep and these gigantic books and all the things. We just went in blindly and took it, but so much has changed. And so I feel like it's a really important topic to cover. But before we get started, can you introduce yourself and just give your background of how you got into test prep to begin with?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Uh

How A Football Injury Led To Tutoring

SPEAKER_02 1:05

begrudgingly. So um I played football at SMU in my senior year. I had injured the same knee a couple of times. And so all of a sudden, um, I wasn't medically qualified to play football. Um, I was gonna make a living at 5'8 and playing playing NFL or anything like that. So I had um some free time. I was used to having a part-time job playing football and uh started tutoring and homeschooling. Um that led to hiring other people as as families wanted uh more assistance than a a human being could possibly provide themselves. And over time, obviously, we started doing SAT, ACT, and other standardized tests. Um, to be very honest, nobody on my team has ever scored below me on the SAT. Um, so it's something that I commiserate with just reconciling your abilities and your talents and your intentions with a test that feels very exotic and uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Right, right.

Why These Tests Feel Like Sports

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Well, you said something interesting. So I should mention that you've been working with our son for a few months, getting him prepared because he's a senior now. And you said something really interesting on our initial phone call. You said that the test is as athletic and psychological as it is academic, which I thought was really interesting because there are a lot of things set up, traps and things that we need to learn how to navigate, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Exactly. The SAT and the ACT are designed as sort of a buffet of academic uh skills. And unlike even benchmark testing or especially AP exams designed by the College Board, which owns the SAT, these tests need to have such a broad range that they cannot be academically uh as focused as we would think. So when we hear math, we think, oh, we're going to be tested over a bunch of math skills. And to some degree, that's correct. But the vessels by which these questions arrive are the tricky part. Those are the things that are exotic. Additionally, very few math tests at school are multiple choice. So the multiple choice introduce additional opportunities for um traps and tricks and misleading answer choices and things of that nature. So um the athletic endeavor and and and component, really what I want to emphasize to parents more so than than even students, as this this isn't something that you're going to necessarily uh necessarily be able to um just learn these things and now you're good. So a good example I typically use is is tennis. And in tennis, you know how to serve. Now, there's people who serve even better and blah, blah, blah, but the mechanics of serving is pretty well known. Why does somebody serve really well in certain conditions and not very well in other conditions? We've all shot free throws, you know, when we might have played basketball on a team. And shooting eight for 10 or 9 for 10 at the free throw line in an empty arena is very much an easier prospect than the games on the line and it's full. So these components are very important to understanding and commiserating with a student who's taking a test that it's not about learning something new in most cases. There is some percentage of that. Let's say 30%, 40% is learning something new. The rest of it is execution and performance under pressure, performance under a long duration of being bombarded with misleading answer choices, misleading questions, confusion, tedium, etc. So this is a something that tests your capabilities to push through, to even test your capabilities to care. And even the way we design our diagnostic, which I think is probably our secret sauce, is we collect data that tells me if the student tried. And some parents don't want to hear that, but I'd rather them tell show, I'd rather show them evidence that their child can versus can't versus will versus won't. Right, right. We can do something about will versus won't.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Well, I think that's a really interesting analogy, the basketball, because I can really visualize, you know, what it's one thing to be throwing that ball with no obstacles or challenges, challenges in your way, just like with the test. And this test is designed with all sorts of obstacles coming out your way and landmines that you're not expecting.

Why Top Students Still Get Tripped

SPEAKER_00 5:50

And if you're not training for it, you really don't know what to expect. But you had mentioned AP classes, which I think is interesting because so many of our students take a lot of AP classes. They're really strong students, they make amazing grades. Yet these tests can trip those very people up. And I want to know why.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah. So one is the misconception that you are being audited over a list of concepts or units of information. That is not exactly applicable to the SAT or the ACT. So that's one thing. On an AP exam, you're being audited for your effort and your investment in the materials that were covered over a course of, let's say, eight months, nine months, maybe less. Um, and then there's reviews for that and so on and so forth. And there's a lot of subjectivity in the, let's say, certain types of questions that have a rubric that are like long-form answer choices. Those things aren't um uh uh available on the SAT or the ACT because the SAT and the ACT has to be designed for the entire English-speaking nation. Doesn't matter if you live in Alaska or if you live in New York or if you go to a hoity-toidie private school, or you go to a rural public school, you know, it has to be accessible. And so what do we do to make the same test that you take to get into Stanford or to get into let's say Texas State? That same test needs to be objectively challenging to that broad demographic of English speaking students. So what do you do? Do you make the concepts acutely difficult in the in science? No, you call it science, it's science-y, but you make all the answer choices available as much as possible, meaning the content is there. Is the student capable, willing, and clever enough to iterate through that? Now, what we teach them are what the tendencies are, what the test can and cannot do. That's like showing a student in tennis, an athlete in tennis. Here are the physics of this sport. If you want your best chance of success, you hit the ball over the lowest part of the net and cross-court because that's the longest you know distance. So the ball has a better chance of landing inside the lines. So those are just physical laws. There are physical laws, if you will, for the SAT and the ACT that apply to this odd dynamic of we're covering all this material, but we're not going that deeply into that material because if we do, we've made it inaccessible to a large swath of students.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Ah, okay, got it. That's so interesting. Do

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SPEAKER_00 8:52

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SAT Versus ACT Choosing By Strengths

SPEAKER_00 9:15

we're on, we've we've gone through this process before with our daughter who's in college now, and um that we use somebody else that time. And so we kind of are familiar with the process and everything, but we've been working with you for a bit. And what I found interesting was your very thorough evaluation of what test your kid is more inclined to do better on. So I want to talk about the difference of ACT versus SAT because I feel like a lot of people really aren't aren't aware what that is.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

In the business world, they talk about keeping things simple, stupid. Um, so you know, without being condescending about it, the simple, stupid approach is to say if a student doesn't struggle with pacing, then likely the ACT will be a favorable test because the ACT is a more straightforward version of the SAT. The SAT has higher highs, meaning when they ask you the most difficult math questions, they're going to be more difficult than the ACT's version of that. Same thing with the reading comprehension or the grammar. There's niche things that are exceptions to the rule in terms of things that are often asked or commonly asked, or the rule itself. It might be this uh grammar snirk as we used to learn, you know, when we were learning grammar rules, this exception to the rule. Um, that doesn't show up as frequently on the ACT. In exchange, the ACT asks questions at a much more rapid rate than the SAT. And one of the ceilings on the SAT that we are trying to evaluate right away, just like the ceiling on the ACT is pace. If a student doesn't receive accommodations and they have to take this test under regular time constraints, their ceiling is do how anxious do I get about this clock? Whether it's real or not real, it's perceivably real to the student, and we have to honor that and and and work with that. The same thing on the SAT side is vocabulary. There's nothing we can do in a short amount of time, uh, even a semi-short amount of time, to make up for reading and writing and utilizing that vocabulary. And this vocabulary isn't just vocabulary, this is words that many adults don't use. And they and often the words are using the secondary length, the secondary definition of that word as opposed to the primary definition. So the connotation of that word might be misleading because of the way it might be used in in common vernacular. So, anyway, those things are not as easily remediated in a test preparation setting. Although, here's the problem: many parents and students are told, hey, you're gonna learn these a thousand vocabulary words that will, you know, show up on the test. They do not show up on the test. If you're in the business of the SAT and the ACT, especially the SAT, and they're gonna test you on vocabulary, you think they're that's your only line of work. You're going to make a thousand words your universe? No, there's so many ways that they cause problems, and it's it's uh a distraction to focus on vocabulary in that way. Um so plainly spoken, if we're looking at a student where 80% of the skills that are being tested show up on both the SAT and the ACT at this point. So I usually analogize it to singles and doubles tennis. Uh, it's still tennis, you're still hitting a forehand, you're just targeting slightly different things. And if you hate volleys, you can hide that on in singles. You cannot hide it in doubles. So those are those are the things that we're kind of looking out for, and that might feel gimmicky, but they mean a lot to a student who's insecure about that or shouldn't be, but they feel that way. Their reality is taken into account into account. We might try to adjust that, but um, there's there's these kinds of things that are going on. So the 20% that's unique to one tester or the other, we take into account as well. And uh, but the pacing is a big one for the ACT versus the reading and vocabulary level of that student on the SAT because that's difficult to remediate very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Okay, got it. I like I like your sports analogy again. That's that really is helpful.

Accommodations What Transfers And What Doesn’t

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Well, you briefly said something about accommodations, and I know a lot of people out there have kids that that are receiving them in school. Does that automatically get you your accommodations for the test?

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Great that you're asking this. In the state of Texas, so this would be different in Oklahoma, this would be different in Nebraska, this would be different in certain states that are ACT focused by by nature, by history. But in the state of Texas, your son or daughter is going to be registered for a PSAT automatically and usually in 10th grade. And so at that point, even if they don't take A B exams, which is with the college board, at that point, the learning specialist at that school is going to apply for accommodations. If that student has a 504 or they have some sort of certification or qualification for accommodations at school, they will automatically have that for the PSAT and therefore for the SAT, and therefore the for the AP exams, if that's applicable. And that's one that many colleges use to determine whether they're going to provide you accommodations. So this is a nice well-oiled machine that automatically happens for families. Unfortunately, that doesn't automatically happen for the ACT. For the ACT, a lot of parents and students don't realize that they need to register for an actual test. They may or may not take that test. Often they won't, if this is really early in the timeline. But they need a student account and they need a registration uh ticket. And once they have that, the learning specialist can use the same forms, same applications to apply for ACT accommodations. Um, so this is an extra formal step that most parents aren't aware of, most students aren't aware of. And um, it's something that is really good for a parent to know so that they're not scrambling to do this.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it seems like that that could be easily overlooked if you were, you knew that it was going automatically to SAT and it seems like something that could easily get lost and just not be prepared for. How soon should people start applying and getting the process in place?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

I commonly say at the onset, because for example, there are, I'll just give you a scenario. If a student receives accommodations and timing accommodations, they likely process through questions um a little bit more laboriously, a little slower than a than a quote unquote whatever's normal. I'm not normal, nobody's normal, but whatever normal is. And um if that shows up on the SAT or in school, it's sure as heck gonna show up on the ACT. So we, for example, if a student receives accommodations in general and utilizes them in school, and for some reason is denied accommodations on the ACT, the ACT is off the table. It doesn't matter how attractive it is, it doesn't matter if the student's gonna score in the 30s, they're not gonna have the time to complete an ACT section to score like they could. So that's how important it is. So why waste time, energy, and money going down one pathway and then find out that it's that pathway is kind of closed for you? So I say at the onset. So the next question would probably be not to do your job, Martha, but uh would be like when should we start? Um, and and that's that's something that's different for different students.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Okay,

When To Start Prep Without Overdoing It

SPEAKER_00 17:15

okay. Well, I do want to talk about when we should start test prep because I felt like I was a little late to the game with my daughter. And the test prep that we used um kind of is famous for creating a frenzy that you need to get on the list starting at seventh grade. And I actually put Blake on that list when he was in seventh grade. And then when it came time for him to start, they didn't have his name. And I go, Oh, yes, you do. I've been on there since seventh grade. Anyways, um, when should we start?

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, this is unfortunate. This is a marketing strategy. I'll put it this way: if somebody's on our quote unquote list and Nima Baja himself has to tutor that child to not let down a promise and an expectation, that's what Nima Baha is going to do. Every one of these companies can do that too. So, this whole notion of a list and whatnot, it sets the dynamic up for more leverage for a test prep provider. And what's toxic about that is this whole experience is already very complicated and anxiety-inducing. So I kind of it causes me to bristle a little bit when I hear parents reach out and they've experienced this. And that's not to point out it's just the whole dynamic needs to be a little bit and can be much more collaborative. That aside, okay, when should people reach out about it? Um, too early is not good. Too much is not good, and that's if even if it was free, and it's far from free, unfortunately. What I say to parents is there's a combination of these ingredients that I'd like them to be aware of. One is how mature and motivated is their child at that point. Now, there's a different answer if this is a daughter versus a son. Um, women famously and very accurately mature much faster than than than men. And um that plays out in test preparation. So certain uh girls are ready to start because they understand the next step is around the corner and there's some compliance there that they need to, you know, uh adhere to. So that's one. Um, but the other ones that are more concrete is specifically what's your math sequence. Ideally, a student has already completed algebra two or is in the process of completing algebra two before we're actually talking about doing test preparation. Because why pay us high dollar for something that you're already going to receive at school? We can reinforce it, we can talk about how it shows up on an SAT or ACT, but I would prefer not to charge our families for something that is already going to happen. So algebra two is kind of that inflection point. The ideal student is starting pre-cal. That's ideal. It doesn't need to be this way. But if the student hasn't taken algebra two, I'm reticent about doing test preparation unless there's just uh extenuating circumstances. So that usually in the state of Texas, what that means is between 10th and 11th grade is a great time to do the heavy lifting of test preparation because the student has enough academics under their belt to theoretically do everything that's on the test. Summers have so much more bandwidth, these kids are overscheduled anyway. Um, so that provides a lot of opportunities to do this with less stress. And then we can kind of pick and choose where we calibrate the test preparation towards whatever testing schedule that student is going to take. We usually recommend that a student takes the test takes a test format, a single test format, a minimum of two times, ideally three times. Uh beyond that, again, there's some there's some situations where it's makes sense for that student to continue to take the test if they want to get to a scholarship or a particular school, but it has to be driven off of college admissions decisions, but at least two times on a particular test. So we're going to map things out going into that uh two to two events. Um so that kind of gives you the lay of line in terms of math specifically, which is kind of that thing that we would prefer the school do. And then we leverage that. And then separately we're talking about time frame. And then one more thing that we take into account is when does this student when are they in season, if you will, for whatever sport or sports or or events that they're involved in. Some of these students, uh your son goes a high level. Park, let's just take the Highland Park Bells, for example. It is impossible for them to do test preparation in a now, they're saying they're doing it, but it's I've done this for 25 years. It's impossible for those ladies to do test preparation on top of the intensity that they're going through from August through honestly January, because then they have nationals and stuff like that, and they're so competitive that they're often going deep in those competitions. So being cognizant of that, because what's most important for this child? Their health. Then once one's health is fine, their mental and emotional and physical health, then we can talk about their uh economic and educational prospects. But we want to be sure it's in that order, otherwise, at minimum, we're wasting money. At maximum, we might be doing something that's not, you know, uh beneficial or healthy for that job.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Right. And we sure don't want to waste money because these test preps are very expensive.

Test Optional What It Really Means

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Well, a few years ago, there started being kind of a buzzword that I thought was interesting and we're still hearing it is test optional. I want to know exactly what that means because, in my opinion, I'd be like, woohoo, I don't want to take this test, so I'm just not going to. I'm gonna intentionally apply someplace that is test optional.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Is it truly optional?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

No, if you want the short answer, it's not truly optional. That's what I think. Um if you want the more nuanced answer, which I think your listeners should have, is there is a um earnest benefit that the colleges want to present with doing test optional. They tried about, I want to say about 10 years back, especially the SAT, with providing a um an index score that collected enough information biographically about that student that showed that that student had quote unquote more adversity versus another student. So there was literally an adversity score. And the consumers bristled against that because they felt like, well, if I'm more well resourced and my child goes to a better school, now it's being held against that child. But it always was held against that child because somebody from a particular test uh zip code is expected to perform better than a student from a lower income zip code. That's always how it's been. It just was unspoken. We can understand the reality of that. If somebody has less resources, they're gonna have less awareness, they're gonna have less uh vendors surrounding their child, et cetera. And so schools were trying to sort of weight things a particular way, but these are very sensitive topics and they're very myopic. They sweep up people. Not everybody in a particular zip code is doing very well. You never know what's going on in their household. And so we don't want to be insensitive to all those little dynamics or important dynamics. Um, where I'm getting to is the schools wanted to have some flexibility. And I think that it's really beneficial that they do this for certain minority of students. And I don't mean minority in terms of demographics, but minor or or race or whatnot, but minority in terms of let's put this situation. I'm an excellent student.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

I take really rigorous courses, I have a documentable um learning difference.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

It is not unrealistic for me to do poorly on these SATs and ACTs, especially if I don't have the means to pursue the things that would help me reconcile my performance in school with my performance on this one-off test. What is true hiring experience or history of uh working experience if you're looking at um admitting a student to college? It's your coursework and your performance in that coursework. Unfortunately, that same course doesn't mean the same thing at one school versus another school. We can say that in Dallas is like if we want to be provocative, we can throw out names of like, hey, I do this, I have this class rank at this school versus that school. And we all know that that school is much more difficult. Sure. And so they have to keep track of that in some form or fashion. And the way they do that is by having these sort of sort of the 40-yard dash or the bench press that they do, which is the SAT or the ACT, if we want to use an NFL combine analogy. So my point with this is the test optional provides an outlet for the student who is the exception to the rule. And but when you ask me, is test optional truly test optional? Well, let's see what we would say if somebody applied for a job and they decide to not provide a cover letter, they just provide a resume. Are they possibly going to get in the door? It depends under certain conditions. If my cousin uh knows them extremely well and they're younger and there's extenuating circumstances, but they can vouch for their performance and their skill set and their talents. Guess what? We're gonna sit down and visit with that person and see if they but if we don't know them from Adam, they're not gonna get in the door. And colleges don't have the capacity to look at all of these students in this way. Now, let me go to the other side, which is the cynical side. When we were going to college, most of the listeners, we were told we look for the renaissance woman or renaissance man. We want to see uh, you know, your talents across the board.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Well rounded.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Well rounded. Thank you. Perfectly put, Martha. That was code for send your application. Now, those who were cynical and skeptical about that said, oh, they want our money for the application fee. They don't care about that. What they care about is that denominator growing because these school rankings are based on certain metrics that are audited.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

One is selectivity.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

A college can only admit a certain amount of students in a given year. UT cannot all of a sudden admit an extra 5,000 students. They need dormitories for those extra 5,000 students. And colleges know that there's a tight correlation between on-campus living that's been mandated for freshmen almost across the board, and for many campuses, like an SMU, has been mandated for sophomores because they've seen a tighter correlation. The longer you stay on campus, the more likely that they can ensure that you graduate in four years or less than five years at least. They're ranked on that. So that's a physical infrastructure that changes and it limits the numerator for the freshman class.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So how do I get more selective? I invite a broader population of students to apply. How do I invite them?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

I say test optional. Oh, very interesting. So during the pandemic, this was tested, and it needed to be because people literally couldn't go to a testing center and take a test. Um, it wasn't allowed, there were uh health concerns. And so the school had been contemplating this. And again, earnestly, it should be contemplated, it should be an option for certain students. But if I want to be like crass about it, and sometimes I have to say this, especially to the boys, nobody's looking for another white kid from North Dallas to come to their school. So you kind of you appear to be a dime a dozen in certain demographics, fairly, unfairly, you know, and they want to have as many metrics as possible to determine a comparison between students that look like likely to be just as successful or just as much of a risk. And so the SAT and the ACT provide that. Um the other thing that the test optional does that's quite interesting to me is if a student knows that to get into, let's say, Georgetown, I need a 33 on the ACT. And if Georgetown went test optional, what about the student who's fantastic everywhere else, but they scored a 30 on the ACT? Are they gonna submit their ACT score if it's test optional? It's completely not in their interest to submit that. So therefore, the test average goes up artificially for incoming freshmen. If those who are not submitting their scores but have lower than the average, stop submitting their test scores. Plainly spoken, if it's a 33 to get into Georgetown, it starts becoming a 34 and a 35 to get into Georgetown if I go test optional. So all these parents, alumni of these schools, feel like I could never get into these schools. And I said, Well, if you're using Enron accounting, you can make the you can make the books however you want to make them look. And and so it's unfair to say to a parent of a previous generation that they're not qualified to get into that school because the the goalposts have have moved.

How Parents Can Support The Process

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Okay. Well, let's end with this. How can we as parents support this whole process? Because obviously it's a big commitment. We're talking about several months working together and preparing almost like you're training for a marathon. What can we as parents do to support the system?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

It's gonna sound a little cheesy, but uh being productively curious is really helpful. Over the last 25 years, I shifted from saying it doesn't matter what the parents like, if the student is XYZ, if they're on board, we'll be fine. That's completely changed. The parents the liability for me, not the not the student. And any coach of juniors in tennis will tell you the exact same thing. So the culture set at the household is something that is long-term. And the culture, whatever is giving that student attention or kit child attention, they will invest in. It's pretty pretty uh well documented. But let's say now we're here. If the parent is curious, not allergic to the SAT and the ACT, Martha, you don't want to go through the SAT or the ACT any more than I do, any more than your son does. I'm not expecting you content-wise to go through it. But what you've done in this process is you've been curious enough to ask me questions so that you can emotionally and uh from a branding perspective and messaging perspective reinforce certain things in that house that I can't do, that my instructor can't do for your son. So you're reinforcing something, you're not creating competitive messaging. And so, what does a child do if they don't want to be held accountable? They change the narrative, especially if you can't audit the accuracy of that narrative. So I don't want parents to take this as children are lying. But it is in their interest to make the world a little bit more convenient and a little bit more kind to them to alleviate their standards under duress. It makes sense. We all would do that, especially if we're younger. And so if parents are curious about it, they can tell if their child is actually invested or not. Because if we can determine together the amount of investment that the child has in this process and what standard we can hold that child to, then we can all calibrate our investment, mom and dad's money, our time and energy, our messaging. So that that calibration process can happen just with some curiosity rather than like this is not a used car lot. This is not an adversarial um consumer relationship. It often is presented that way, unfortunately, by both test spread providers and by parents. But one of the reasons why we're hourly and a carte, as opposed to here's a package, everyone wants the best thing for their child. So uh that's one thing. So that's kind of by a gimmick saying, you know, you do you want the gold package or do you want the silver package? Obviously, everybody wants a gold package. So that that's one thing we don't want to guilt parents into. And we also don't want to put parents in a bind where they've already paid money for something that may or may not happen. We want to do our best to continue to recalibrate that. And so a curious parent who is curious enough to just at least figure out how to commiserate with their child can then hold their child to a higher standard and help us understand their child as quickly as possible so that we can calibrate our messaging.

How To Reach Scholastic Success

SPEAKER_00 35:51

All right. Well, sounds great. Well, Nima, thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge and wisdom with us today. I think this is going to be so helpful for so many people that are starting the process in the middle of the process. And how can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Uh, we're not on social media per se. We are sort of, but it's kind of a weird thing to, you know, hey, I'm here with a student. Um you you can uh contact us via our email. Um we'll provide that in the I'm sure in the uh notes in the notes. And um email is the best way or through our website. Uh we're very responsive. And um, I mean, often when we're visiting with parents, we're not we're not trying to sell them on test preparation. We're trying to give them some guidance and then they can use that information to either shop around or determine if it's the right time for their child.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Sure. And the website is scholastic success.com, and I'll put that in the notes so you don't have to remember it along with his email. Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. Yeah, I appreciate it. That's been another episode of the Bubble Lounge. I'm Martha, and I'll see you next time.