Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to the Bubble Lounge. I'm Martha Jackson and in honor of Women's History Month, we're celebrating a woman whose story is straight out of the spy thriller, except it's all real. Tracy Walder is a former CIA and FBI agent and she's the author of bestselling book the Unexpected Spy. From tracking terrorists around the world to breaking barriers in male-dominated fields, tracy's career has been nothing short of groundbreaking. And another thing she is a mom right here in our neighborhood. So we're going to cover a lot of things today, from being a dance mom to being a teacher, to being a spy. Tracy is one of our favorite guests and you are going to love this episode.

Speaker 1: 0:49

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Speaker 2: 1:42

Tracy welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Martha. It's awesome to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Well, I absolutely love following you on Instagram. You share so many useful tips and so many videos on a day-to-day basis, but I most recently saw that you were at a dance competition. I got to say I live that life and I feel for you.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Yes, it's a rough life sometimes dealing with the sass and the anxiety and the attitude surrounding a nine-year-old at a dance competition. That's for sure.

Speaker 1: 2:13

Well, there is a lot of stress. I totally remember waking up super early one morning and I was trying to put on false eyelashes on my daughter and it was not going well. I was shaking, I was so worried we were going to be late because you know you have to get there at the crack of dawn in the morning and yeah, so that did not end up very well at all.

Speaker 2: 2:32

I completely understand why I don't put fake eyelashes on my daughter, because I have tried and it didn't go.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Yeah, well, we definitely never had them on since, so you know. So what's funny is you're a mom just like the rest of us, but you have this extraordinary background and you've been really busy lately.

Speaker 2: 2:55

Yeah, interrogating terrorists I think was should have prepared me for the trials of motherhood, but I don't really know that it has face to face with my own child. But yes, cia and FBI really didn't prepare me well for the anxiety around a dance competition.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Well, what's funny is I mean, you have negotiated with some of the most well-known terrorists out there and you're not able to control your own nine-year-old Yep, that would pretty much be the case.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Yes, she's probably. I love her to pieces, but there are times where sometimes I'm more scared.

Speaker 1: 3:24

Well, I think that makes the rest of us feel better, because you know we don't have the same background as you and we're not able to do it any better so. I think that's kind of, you know, a testament to all of us. We're just doing the best that we can. Everyone's doing the best they can. Yes, well, so you have been extremely busy lately. Every time I look at your Instagram, you're on the news and you've just got so many different things you're involved with. Tell us what's going on.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Yeah, so now obviously my life has taken a little bit of a 180, I guess. Now I am the national security contributor for News Nation and I've done that probably about two and a half. I'm in my third year contract with them. I'm an adjunct faculty of criminal justice at TCU Go Frogs. I've been there for about five years and it's just awesome. I am a public speaker, I speak with leading authorities to all different kind of Fortune 500 companies, and then I was on the Discovery show that just aired it's now rearing, I think, on streaming called Lost Monster Files.

Speaker 1: 4:27

Oh, wow Well that is rather busy.

Speaker 2: 4:30

Thank, you for being here today.

Speaker 1: 4:32

I really appreciate your time Well, so you spend a lot of time, I know, speaking with young women and just talking to them about your career and encouraging them to pursue the same type of career. Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 4:47

Yeah, so I am the only female who's worked on the operations side of both the CIA and the FBI, still to this day. Yes, still to this day. And it's interesting because the gender parity, I guess, isn't great. And this is not to bash men, because my favorite bosses were men. Quite frankly, they're our best allies. But right now, only about 12% of special agents at the FBI are female, which is crazy. Women couldn't even be FBI agents until 1972. I was born in the 70s, it's not that long ago and you know, across national security as a whole, only about 22% of the jobs are held by women.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Well, what was it like working in such a male dominated career, and how did you handle that? I know you've got some good stories.

Speaker 2: 5:38

So CIA was interesting. I didn't experience too many, I guess, issues right from the opposite sex, but it's not to say other women, you know, haven't experienced that. I can just go off of what my experience is was, and I was working in the counterterrorism center before, during and after September 11th, so I guess quite the tenuous time. Maybe we just didn't have time to have issues, I don't know, but it was, you know, and serving in all the different countries that I did, and living in Afghanistan, there were so many times that I was, you know, the only woman, but woman, excuse me, but I don't know that the males cared, necessarily, but I did. I don't know that.

Speaker 2: 6:20

I told you all this story the last time that I was on but I had been read into or briefed into a very classified program, even though at CIA everyone has, you know, the same base level security clearance. You have to. There's different programs and everybody has access to different things, which is fine, and I had been read into a specific one and the guy that I was dating was not read into a specific one and the guy that I was dating was not, and he became very upset with me that I would not tell him because I could be fired for that right and lose my security clearance, and he broke up with me because I wouldn't share that with him. So it's kind of interesting to see how like that kind of thing plays out. You know you have access to this, why don't I? So I thought that that was really interesting.

Speaker 1: 7:05

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Speaker 2: 7:44

I never really had too many problems either. You know, overseas, being a female, I think we misunderstand like what cover is. And so the reality is is, you know, females are overseas, females are serving in these roles. I don't have to change my appearance. There's no question that I'm an American woman with blonde hair, right, there's no question, and so you kind of work around that. And the only that I'm an American woman with blonde hair, right, there's no question, and so you kind of work around that. And the only country I had an issue in was a North African country where they were, you know, calling me Barbie and just not nice names.

Speaker 2: 8:15

But I think it was less about me and more that they were mad at our station chief and then just chose to sort of take it out on me. I don't know, but at CIA we look at the gathering of intelligence. I don't know if this is boring for folks, but intelligence, we view that as acceptable for males and females. If you think about it, you're just, you're using a lot of critical thinking skills right in that job. But I think in law enforcement we look at that as a very male dominated position, and so I think part of the we look at that as a very male-dominated position, and so I think part of the problem is the role pop culture plays in it and what we see in people having these jobs.

Speaker 1: 8:53

Well, that brings me to the fact that in Hollywood, they always portray spies, female spies, in a certain way, where they have the high heels on the tight sexy dress. You know, the Bond girls, the honeypot. So are you telling me? It's not like?

Speaker 2: 9:06

that. No, and I mean yes, the honeypot trope right has been around for gosh since the 50s, right 60s, I don't know, as you mentioned, like with the old kind of James Bond movies. And no, we don't do that at the CIA. That's illegal. Maybe other services do, but we definitely don't do that Well.

Speaker 1: 9:28

Speaking of the way women dress, I know that you were kind of given a hard time in one of your jobs based on the suit that you were wearing, and I want to talk more about that because I find that so fascinating.

Speaker 2: 9:41

So I left the CIA, not because I hated it, I just I didn't want to be overseas anymore. I'm still really good friends with people there. I had the best bosses. I mean they were males and they were incredible. My friends were bridesmaids at my wedding.

Speaker 2: 9:54

I mean, I'm close to people there. I just I did not want to live overseas anymore and that's not something that's ever going to change. The agency should be collecting intelligence overseas right, that is their job. And so I thought, okay, I'm still really passionate about like the mission of counterterrorism, but how can I do that and just be here Like not stationary, but like static in one place in the United States?

Speaker 2: 10:19

And so I thought well, why don't like anyone else, like let's just apply to the FBI. And so I did, and I left the CIA on, you know, friday. I started. I had my Quantico report date, you know on a Monday and I did not think that there would be any difference, because why would there? But I think part of me was probably naive too, and so I started.

Speaker 2: 10:39

You're kind of almost in a like a college classroom when you first start at Quantico and you introduce yourself and you sort of start to go around and talk about where you came from. I think the other thing, aside from being a female, that I didn't factor was at the time how much the FBI and CIA hated each other. They're very upset with each other, and so I think that was sort of a loaded issue that I didn't expect. And so we started introducing ourselves. I said who I was, I said you know where I came from, and the instructor the head instructor was like there's no way that you actually work there. And I'm like wait. They came there and did my background check, like you definitely know that I work there, and he started sort of almost giving me a hard time. And so your first module at Quantico is interviewing, which is like super basic. I think they're probably just easing you into stuff and you don't wear a uniform when you do that. You have a uniform at Quantico you wear. They want you to wear a suit? Great. So I just wore the same suit that. I mean, I think I had briefed the Saudis and like I mean, this was not a controversial suit, but I really liked it. It was so cute.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Anywho, I wore the suit and I got pulled into my supervisor's office and he said that I needed to apologize to that particular module instructor. You have a head instructor for all your different modules and I was like, oh my God, what did I do? You know? Did I do something wrong when I was practicing, interviewing victims or you know those kinds of things? And he said no, no, no, you need to apologize to him for the way you made him feel in your suit. And I was like what? And I think, listen, a lot of people give me a lot of flack because, like, I did apologize.

Speaker 2: 12:16

But the problem is is like you have to put yourself in that situation. First of all, it's very young and, second of all, I kind of just wanted to get out right, like, let me go get through this really not fun time at Quantico and then hopefully it won't be like that when I leave Quantico and so I get it. I understand now at 46 that I should not have apologized but did at the time. So how exactly did you make this guy feel? I don't really know. I don't think I asked for more information. I think when you're in a state of just shock you, I think you can get either angry right and start like kind of yelling and screaming and being defensive, or you just get like really quiet and then think about later, oh gosh, all the things I should have said. I just had gotten quiet and just like wanted to get out of there. I think was sort of how I felt.

Speaker 1: 13:04

Well, I'm just sitting here thinking like if I worked at the FBI or anywhere in corporate America for that matter, and I work with this man, doug, and he just looks like such a man and he's just making me feel this certain way, and I go to my supervisor and say, doug, I just can't work with this guy. He's just too much of a man. He needs to change his clothes. Like, what is Doug supposed to wear now? And like, would anyone take me seriously? They would not. They would not. I would be laughed right out of there, right. Yes, they would not. They would not, I would be laughed right out of there, right. Yes, that's crazy. Yes, like I just can't even imagine and I feel like I know who you are and I'm sure your suit was not, you know, anything revealing.

Speaker 2: 13:44

I've never been known to be a revealing dresser. It's just not who I am.

Speaker 1: 13:50

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Speaker 1: 14:23

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Speaker 2: 14:59

I don't know about that, but I love it. So I work in their Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice and the other faculty. The chair the students. It's honestly awesome. I didn't really have a Texas team to root for because I'm USC Trojan is where I went to school and so I guess TCU has sort of become my Texas team, if you will. But it is, I love it. I teach intro to criminal justice and then when I have time I teach a course on domestic terrorism. It just depends what they have in that like rotating schedule. But the students are incredible. I mean, I just helped one. She went to a career fair for the CIA at TCU's campus and so she and I are kind of texting and I'm helping her with her application and all of that to go through, and she keeps moving through all the different hurdles.

Speaker 2: 15:48

She's doing really great, so to be able to see that is pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm from TCU. Most of my family went to. I'm from Fort Worth is what I meant to say. Most of my family went to TCU. It's a great school.

Speaker 1: 16:01

It really is. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great gig that you have, and I know you're making a big impact on these, these kids Well, so obviously you have been in many situations that most of us would find quite fearful. Tell us about that. Do you have any tips for those of us that are struggling with our own fears, and just any mind tricks that you can pass along to us?

Speaker 2: 16:25

That's a hard question because it's big right Right. In my opinion, I think the one thing we do not wrong. But one of the things that obviously has helped me is you know, at FBI you have something called Hogan's Alley. It's where you practice something called situational awareness. You know we talk about like just brute force, right, but it's actually more than that. And so Hogan's Alley puts you in difficult situations with paid actors and paid ammunition, weapons, and they shoot at you and you do not have anything on, and they curse at you and you do not have anything on and they curse at you, they spit at you, they do all of the things and you are in. Maybe you're responding to a robbery, maybe you're being carjacked, maybe you're being, and they put you in all of these situations on purpose to make you have a different response. And that is what I'm incredibly grateful for, because that response is what helps me in a lot of difficult situations. I think where we sometimes don't react in an effective manner, in my opinion, is that, like kind of fight or flight, we let our anxiety overpower us right in a situation and we almost become tunnel vision and our heart starts beating way too fast and we can't calm down and so we freeze right that seems to be a response that I see or we become hysterical. That seems to be a response that I see, and what I have noticed is, in those situations I don't and I think a lot of it is because of that training that I received. But I think you know the biggest thing and I could give you a funny anecdote which I think viewers or listeners will really understand, because it's definitely our community related I was actually this was three or four years ago I was on my way to a dinner for Lit Fest, so it was like maybe seven o'clock at night, I think, and I think it was January-ish or February, so obviously it was dark and I live on a corner, and so I was backing my car out and I had my co-author with me because she was in town, so we're going to hang out and go to this dinner.

Speaker 2: 18:27

And so I'm backing my car out and a car is going north, so towards, towards me, kind of slows down for me to like back out. So I back out and then the car is like following me and keeps following me and I was like this is super strange. And so I hit Beverly. Um, so I'm sure everyone knows where that is. So I hit Beverly stop sign. There I was like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna turn on my indicator, I'm just gonna knows where that is. So I hit Beverly stop sign. There I was like I'm not going to turn on my indicator, I'm just going to turn and see what happens. And so I didn't turn on my indicator and I turn and the car followed me and so I started getting more and more concerned and so I stopped really quick and made a left onto a different street and then I just started gunning it like George Mockingbird.

Speaker 2: 19:14

It had there been HPPD, like right there, I definitely would have been pulled over. And all of a sudden my like the Bluetooth in my car right starts ringing. It's my husband, so maybe he's home, like coming home early from work, whatever. So I answer it and he's like babe, it's me, I'm behind you. Oh my gosh, I just wanted to say bye and I was like you can't just follow me. I couldn't see his car. He drives a black car. There was just no way I could see make out like what the vehicle was oh my gosh, that is not the outcome I was expecting at all.

Speaker 1: 19:49

I was like in the story.

Speaker 2: 19:51

That was my husband.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Wow, that's pretty funny the story that was my husband. Wow, that's pretty funny. So you've successfully interrogated some of the most high ranking Al-Qaeda members. Can you share any strategies that in your negotiations that maybe some of us could apply to our lives?

Speaker 2: 20:09

Definitely so. I think another misconception about how we recruit assets or how we talk to prisoners is that it's acrimonious, right, like we approach it in this like very negative way. But weirdly, it's about finding commonalities, and I know a lot of people are probably like well, what in the world do you have in common with the terrorists? I don't, clearly from an ideological perspective, but we're all humans. We're all human beings, and so, in my opinion, to get good information from someone or to recruit someone to spy on their own country, it's about finding a common relationship between the two of you, because that gets them to trust you and then that gets them to give you good, solid, actionable intelligence and information. I think that's something that we can honestly apply to how we just treat people in general.

Speaker 1: 21:00

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Speaker 1: 21:58

So, Tracy, the way that I found out about you several years ago was your book the Unexpected Spy, and it was brand new. At the time you were on, I think, a press tour and I just kept seeing you all over and I was like she lives in my neighborhood, and so that's how I found out about you. That book is incredible, by the way. I really really enjoyed reading it. Let's talk about your book and the background of how you actually got into the CIA misconception amongst college students, people in general.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Right, that you have to check all of these boxes to get into these jobs, and sure, certain things do help, right. But I have none of those boxes that you have to check and in fact I didn't even want to work at the CIA or the FBI. I didn't even really know that it existed because I guess, to orient the audience, I was a pre-9-11 child, right. I grew up in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and international terrorism wasn't really like a thing. Al Qaeda wasn't even born until 1989. I grew up with, like, oklahoma City bombing, like that was my perception, right, of terrorism. So I didn't even know that this was something you could do. Also, in regards to the CIA no offense to Sean Connery, but like that's who was still James Bond at the time and so it didn't really appeal to me, let's just put it that way. And so I wanted to be a high school history teacher, and so I went. My dad was a professor at USC, so I went to USC for free, which is, I mean, why not? Right? And so I wanted to be a high school history teacher.

Speaker 2: 23:40

I majored in history, but in 1997, I was working out in my sorority house and I was watching I think it was CNN at the time and it was two gentlemen that were interviewing this guy. You know, he had two AK-47s next to him, he was in a cave and this guy issued a declaration of war against the US. And I started to wonder, like who is this person? And it was Osama bin Laden. But at the time, you know, usc is a great school but no one was really offering like international terrorism, like it just wasn't an issue of the day at that time, which I know sounds crazy. And so I thought, well, I still want to graduate in four years to learn more about this topic. So I started taking like modern Middle Eastern history, international affairs, whatever I could, but again, it wasn't readily understandable to me that I could have a career in that, and so this was back in gosh 98, maybe 99.

Speaker 2: 24:36

And the dot-com boom if anybody remembers that that's how old I am was like a thing right, and everyone wanted a job in that. And so my sorority sister was like a thing right, and everyone wanted a job in that, yes. And so my sorority sister was like, hey, you should come to this career fair on Truesdale Parkway, which is like our main thoroughfare. And I was like why, I definitely don't want to work like for a dot-com startup. I have to go. You know what, I'll just come with you. I have to go anyways, I was applying for an internship in DC, so I was like it's on my way to astronomy, I'll just bring my resume and you know, I'll accompany you, for comfort, I guess.

Speaker 2: 25:07

And I saw that there was a table and it said CIA and that's very common. I mean they were just at TCU in November and that they were looking for liberal arts majors. And so I went to the recruiter and I said, hey, do you guys do this like terrorism thing? And he was like it's actually a really small group that does their main focus. They were looking for Spanish speakers and Russian speakers, just because I always say Russia is always going to Russia. But in Latin America there were just a lot of coup d'etats going on. That was just a big push at the time. I don't speak any foreign languages and I was like well, here's my resume, whatever, if you call super, if you don't super, that's how much I don't want to seem like I don't care. I do care, it's just it wasn't my career path. And then they called two weeks later and I guess the rest is history.

Speaker 1: 25:53

The rest is history. That is just such an interesting story I can't imagine. I mean, you literally applied on a whim.

Speaker 2: 26:01

Yes, 100%, and that's why I like to share that story Because, again, like the student who I was talking about at TCU, she's an English major, she does not have a foreign language, but in my opinion, she has the soft skills that I thought would really make her an asset. And I was right, because she's made it through the process, and so I think sometimes it's not about that all the time.

Speaker 1: 26:22

Is she the only one that you have kind of helped along?

Speaker 2: 26:26

No, no, there's been lots of others, I would imagine that.

Speaker 1: 26:30

Well, tracy, after eight years in intelligence, is there anything that really changed your perspective of the world, especially coming from California?

Speaker 2: 26:39

I think, my time in Afghanistan and, more specifically, actually talking and I'll put that in quotes to a terrorist who was in custody there. We were trying to get information out of him. But, as I mentioned before, it's about right like finding commonalities, and so I just asked him like general questions about himself you don't usually just like jump into a conversation like that and I said, you know why did you become a terrorist? Like why? But I felt like I knew the answer to that. Right, you are a fanatic. That's why, you know, I thought I knew the answer.

Speaker 2: 27:14

But it really changed my perspective on why people become these extremists. And you know, he said to me he is from a country that I think we would probably label as like a fragile or failed state, meaning they're the people that run that country cannot meet the basic needs of the citizens, so like no paved roads, no financial structure, none of that. And he came from that. He was abandoned, orphaned at age seven. He never had any education past that he was living in like a hollowed out, like a sewer drain sort of situation and he had totally unchecked hepatitis.

Speaker 2: 27:51

And a very high ranking member of Al Qaeda stumbled across him one day when he was older I think he was 13 maybe at the time the time and was like hey, if you come work for us, I will give you three meals a day. I will send you to school. You want medicine to keep your hepatitis in check, I will give that to you as well. And I started to understand the underlying influences of why not everyone there are some that obviously are fanatics but why they initially joined these groups. Obviously, he became radicalized, like over a time period, but it was because he was beholden to them and it was really cool to then be able, because of that information that we gleaned, you to make policy like actual policy to put into place with some of these countries to help individuals like not fall into this, and so I thought it was a pretty cool way to stop terrorism right from like its inception, rather than from the top down.

Speaker 1: 29:02

Right, that is so interesting. I've often wondered how people get involved in this guy's situation. He just was in an awful situation and needed out.

Speaker 2: 29:13

And that probably was his only option, really.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Well, we were talking earlier about all the videos that you have on Instagram. I love watching those and you just cover everything from women's safety to all the current issues. Tell us more about what you're doing there.

Speaker 2: 29:30

Yeah. So I started the Unexpected Spy Instagram TikTok on like a flute, like a whim. Someone just told me that I should, so I did and I started, because I started becoming very frustrated with, like the noise around national security, intelligence, crime, all of that. It was, in my opinion, too politicized and sometimes I think we don't care about things we can't understand. And so if it takes us an hour and a half to understand a national security issue, we're not going to care about it. And so I started making videos, three minutes or less, explaining a national security problem or an issue in a totally apolitical way. I don't really give my opinion, no one really knows where I stand, and that's, in my opinion, how it should be, and people seem to like it, so yay. And then people had asked for like safety and security tips and some crime stuff too. So I kind of pepper that in when I can and when I have the time.

Speaker 1: 30:27

Well, while we're talking about that, a lot of people are traveling for spring break. Can you share any safety tips for us to travel?

Speaker 2: 30:35

Yeah, I think the very first thing, in my opinion, I don't put on social media ever. I don't post when I'm on a trip or before I go on a trip. Ever I will after. And I have two different accounts I have my private account and then I have my public account, and so I never, ever, ever, post that.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Also, I think enabling location on your phone is incredibly important and sharing that with a certain group of people not necessarily people that will be there with you, because I think we think that that's the best course of action and it is. I think one or two people who are there with you is great, but let's say you're going to Mexico. I think someone in a state should also have your location as well, depending on sort of what you're doing. Also, hotels it drives me crazy when you get a room key and they tell you where your room is. Like they're not supposed to do that. So like, let's be sure.

Speaker 2: 31:28

Also, I never I will not stay at a hotel where I have to stay on the first floor. Ever, okay, like full stop, I will not stay on the first floor, and I know that seems silly because someone's like well, someone could just take the stairs a second. They can, but you're now making it a little smidgy more difficult for them to do that, and so I personally. Those are just some things that I would encourage people to do. Also, knowing what the 911 or emergency number is, in whatever country you're visiting. There are apps that will show you that, and the State Department has a really good site, quite frankly, that will download all of that stuff for you to have on your phone.

Speaker 2: 32:04

Yeah, I've never even thought about that last one.

Speaker 1: 32:06

That's a really really good site, quite frankly. That will download all of that stuff for you to have on your phone. Yeah, I've never even thought about that last one. That's a really really good tip. Well, so you're also on NewsNation. Have been for a few years now. You said Tell us what all you're doing with them.

Speaker 2: 32:15

You know, I feel like everything for me starts out of frustration. My parents always were like, stop complaining and start a revolution. We don't want to hear your complaining. Maybe that's a Gen Xer way of growing up, I don't know. But I became frustrated because there were no women on any news network talking national security like at all, and representation definitely matters. And so I just started.

Speaker 2: 32:40

Different networks would reach out to me to be on, and so I was like, well, why not right, why not try this? And I realized public speaking used to be really hard for me, and it was really really hard initially because you don't get any of their questions ahead of time. You have to answer everything on the spot. Oh, wow, yes, and so it was hard. But eventually News Nation, which is a newer um national news cable network, um was was hiring, and so my agent put me forward and and they hired me and I love working for them chris cuomo, elizabeth vargas, um, and it's been excuse me, it's been a really great opportunity to at least show women, um, you know, sort of in these roles.

Speaker 1: 33:24

And, do I understand correctly, you're the only woman out there as it stands right now. Yes, I just don't know who's been hired recently, right, right, well, that's awesome. Well, so, looking back at your career, I mean you've done so many things. You're currently doing so many things. Of all the things you've been involved with, what is your biggest achievement being?

Speaker 2: 33:44

a mom. Oh, I love that. I definitely think that's my biggest achievement and I absolutely love being a mom, like there's really nothing better. I love being a mom. I love being my wife. My husband and my daughter are literally my everything.

Speaker 1: 33:59

I love that. Well, how can people find out more about you?

Speaker 2: 34:03

You can follow me on Instagram or TikTok or both at the Unexpected Spy. Obviously, if I know you personally, you can follow me on my private account, but if I don't know people, I only allow my open account.

Speaker 1: 34:17

I think that's good advice we should all follow. Well, thank you so much for being here today. This has been so fun to catch up with you.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Thank you so much for having me, Martha. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 34:28

That's been another episode of the Bubble Lounge. I'm Martha Jackson and I'll see you next time.